OK I am naming this thread after the mysterious piece of debris Spock and Burnham landed on. (Well, I didn't think it was mysterious but a lot of people did.). A thread for ephemera we come across. YOU GUYS LOOK! https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/felines-join-starfleet-in-chronicle-collectibles-cool-new-line-of-star-trek-cats?fbclid=IwAR2qJLMgHPpMP6ZHihc0XkKXduf6Uyx01k2iVJFPqjbmG9oBokMfju_i0Hs

Notes Lower Decks Wrap up Episode: To me the overarching theme was disconnection and finding ourselves and others, and how we have to reach out to resolve that, at least in part. Having spent a large part of the season with my first time ever almost complete disconnection to myself, maybe that’s why it resonated with me. Though....I don’t think I’ve managed the reach out part in my own life yet. Maybe a little. And they are probably right. But it’s easier said than done. Of course I’m the person you refer to that hands down was all about the Spock Burnham. Lol. Maybe not. I haven’t been on the Patreon boards. Just the forum. Wow. You guys just really didn’t like Discovery, either season lol. I sure hope it comes around for you. Agree fight scene one of the best of the season. It super worked. It added to both characters. If we didn’t have to bolt through a main story and got two or three episodes to explore, I really think they would have had more of a story. My takeaway with the writers were when they were allowed free reign they were great and when they were expected to fill in the blank to get HERE they fumbled. I know there was more about religion planned, reportedly there is even a photo somewhere of Pike wearing a cross that caused a hue and cry before the season. That was apparently removed. I wish they were allowed to just go for things but I suspect they are crossed by hierarchy a lot. Omg. I love bearded Spock. I’m sure I’ll love clean young Spock too but I love bearded Spock. However, only with the leather coat. Would be awful with the uniform. I loved the Bowie scene. My favorite thing was how it supplanted Stamets saying to Tilly “I love you”. Because he’s just not that kind of guy but he wanted to. And you know Tilly loves him. “Tell his wife he loved her very much” “She knows”. Hard in the extreme to pick best scene... tie between Spock/Burnham Gym, Vulcan salute in bay, or final “I love you”. Okay. All Spock Burnham scenes and definitely that Spock Stamets scene. I’ll tag you on Instagram of a mashup I did between that and Journey to Babel that was just....I mean Young Spock totally won me over at that moment Because I completely flashed back to Journey to Babel. Yes. 👎🏻for Yum Yum. And she seemed uncomfortable with it as well. Well at least we all felt the same way about Spock and Pike. :( I felt Michael actually made a huge stride, in that she recognized what Spock recognized long ago and what he was really angry about and couldn’t communicate with her because of. (I really can write better than this if I take time. I promise. Sorry). Her obsessive need to burden herself , not not just with responsibility but ownership and responsibility of things she does NOT have control over. And not grasping that SHE does not always cause “the bad things” and therefore HAVE to fix them ALL by herself. It goes back to the child S & B scene and how he kept trying to get her to include them. “OUR family.“ “OUR home”. And I do hope next season we see her relax because of this. I will pick one point. Maybe in the past there was not any inherent tension or hostility between religion and science. But we see it daily now and in fact experience it daily in our own lives. Like day in and day out. There *shouldn’t* be. Astronauts are a great example as those who often have their experience grow their faith. But I can tell you that seems to have suffered mightily the last decade or two and the writers probably grew up in that time (they all seem pretty young). I am sad to say, I’m not sure how to get around that. I know I am daily disheartened by the fact that absolutely there is at least a huge tension and yes, even hostility, between science and religion in modern Christianity. I mean I literally am reminded of that each day in the real world and with people I know personally. You literally cannot talk about science with people or they lose their minds. And the odd thing is they use it! I mean it’s like if it’s useful to them personally right now, it’s fine. Otherwise whoa Nelly, do you get the stink eye. And if you bring up data, you get the eye roll if not outright “those are lies”. So I don’t know. Maybe that’s a regional thing and you don’t experience it. But I sure do. There are two sides to that story and maybe there is an issue with the writers and they need to bring on a couple of people who remember a time you could have both. I don’t know. Well I have no idea what they will do in season three. I do not believe Michael at least would ever return. I’m pretty sure no matter what they do there will be a big hue and cry of dismay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Would it be so bad if they set the federation straight in its mission if it’s begun to list to the side? Also .... why didn’t you call your drink....”Timehole”. Lol. Well.. I guess I’m kind of sad. And I guess I am definitely a character driven viewer but I always have been I believe, since I was little. (And Spock was always my jam. Always. So....probably why I like this season although I had no expectations going into the season of how they would handle him and was suspicious.) I also have little faith Discovery will go beyond next season because there are simply too many variables in demand from fans. Which is too bad. I mean they seem to have to fight every decision they have made with one faction or another. I hope I am wrong. I simply need to be happy that so far I love the characters and their stories and maybe Jett will be there a lot more (knock on wood. Tig has time to clear out her schedule this time). I do hope/wish they’d slow the pace down because they won’t get 26 episodes so hopefully they will figure out a way to do say 10-12 with a more evenly spread story across characters. (But of course then there will be a lot of people who don’t like that. I was always amazed this year at reading and listening to how the same episode would be described as too “talky“ by one analyst (and they definitely meant character moments) and as “needs more quiet character moments” by another.) I’m just glad I’m not a writer. I can’t imagine the pressure. I do hope that if nothing else they take advantage of what appears to be fairly universal love of Pike (and even surprisingly- I expected WAY more pushback) Spock. If Disco has done nothing else it birthed that possibility. And despite Pike being a white man it doesn’t mean it has to be a straight male dominated show. I don’t know. I’m kinda depressed now. Oh well. Lol.

I thought this was a super interesting analysis of Spock and Michael being a rare case in Sci-fi/Fantasy or Myth where the sister's life is not sacrificed to the brother's. Hope some of you enjoy it. I love her use of The Dead Brother's Song as the lead in. “He turns the clouds into a horse, the stars into a bridle, and with the moon as company he goes to bring her back.” — The Dead Brother’s Song, 9th century CE (perhaps the oldest surviving Hellenic folksong) http://www.starshipreckless.com/blog/?p=10591

You guys here’s a little thread for theories. In general I like to sit back and just watch but......*for funsies* lets hear ideas of possibilities on things. i was making a gif this a.m. and I noticed when Leland goes into override the ship and get more power, before he gets eye poked...the computer voice, that we now know was control, has a slight British accent....just like Zora in Calypso. I still keep feeling like this will connect to Calypso in some way and realizing this, firms my belief up. We’ve never heard an accent in a computer that I can remember except in these two incidences. Thoughts? Ideas?

So here is a list off the top of my head of characters come back to life in Star Trek pre-Discovery. They may be doo g it more, but I believe because it fits their theme. (Not all cages are a prison nor all loss eternal.) I’m sure I am missing some. Can you think of others? Kirk Amok Time Scotty The Changling Spock The Search for Spock Picard Tapestry Harry Kim Emanations and Deadlock Data /B-4 Data Times Arrow Neelix Mortal Coil Miles O’Brien Visionary Everyone TNG Cause and Effect Tasha Yar Yesterday’s Enterprise Ballard Ashes to Ashes Sisko The Visitor

I'm sure I'm the only one who LOVED this episode. But I did love it. Still I wanted to lay this right here before we discuss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_crystal

Well, that was like the saddest episode ever. It was really really good but wow was it sad.

Wow. This is....amazing to me. https://thewellpod.com/ethan-peck-part-2-touching-death-twp038/

Imma just spew out these points in no order. I could write a book I think. So much love. So many things!!! Amazing choice to have no music during fight scene. Loved that Tyler appeared to be defending himself between attempts to just restrain Culber. That come back to Culber was a gut punch. LOVED the cold open recap. Respectful. Owned the modernization of the era. Really worked as a bridge for me to modern Pike. I love Spock. That is all. I just do. I think Ethan is going to land this beautifully. Culber is so painfully truthful IMO. The scenes between him and Stamets seemed real and crushing. Vina and Pike! That scene was everything. They had amazing chemistry and lent depth to “The Menagerie” like mad. Pike’s reaction when she came to him was masterful. Wonderful. I think Michael and Spock have amazing chemistry. Also the switching between past and present and child adult pairings changing constantly also spoke to me. We carry family hurt with us our whole lives. At least I felt them saying that. I think of a song I love “Be careful how you send me, be careful how you bend me. Careful how you end me. Be careful with me.” I know non-sequitur in a way but those lyrics seriously bloomed in my head as I watched. Brutal. Brutal. Brutal. (And I knew that would be the cause of the rift and fully expected to be underwhelmed. Instead they killed me with how sad it was). Saru’s explanation and 100 percent sassy reasoning absolutely had me and my friend howling out loud. In fact she made me rewind so we could watch it again. Lol. I could talk about every line and even if this episode and not praise enough. It is definitely my favorite Disco to date and will probably not be topped. It was like a gift I always wanted and didn’t know I wanted it.

If anyone is interested in interviews, Anson Mount's podcast "The Well Podcast" will be having interviews with Ethan Peck and Doug Jones for the next four weeks, starting today I think. He's a terrific interviewer from the episodes of his pod I have listened to and he gets very interesting sides of people that are often unexpected. I thought folks might be interested in this.

Soo....I was wondering about this title. After digging around found this quote by William Gurnall " Christ bears with the saints’ imperfections; well may the saints one with another. " Finally found the sermon it was from. I think mostly they are after the premise (though the sermon applies this to Christians at various stages of their faith) that we must bear with each others imperfections. (Indeed the first line of the section is: " Bear with one another’s imperfections. ") But I thought there was a very interesting paragraph late in the sermon that may also have bearing: " And, when love hath once laid the dust which passion and prejudice hath blown into our eyes, we shall then stand at greater advantage for finding out truth." Which is kind of really interesting in today's world where "passions and prejudice" are creating a lot of conflict and obscuring truth (secular). I do not know how much of this will have actual bearing on the episode, but I do know that they are interested in these ideas as we saw it a little in New Eden with the argument between Pike and Burnham on religion vs. Science. Anywho, interesting. I can't imagine where else the name comes from.

So I’m sensing an arch on Discovery with Love through belief New Eden- science and faith, love of Mother -Amanda, L’Rell, Point of Light, love of Sibling with Michael and Saru, Stamets and Tilly, what love will we see this week?

Guys Pike comes walking into that meeting “Everybody to your stations”. But no idea why Nahn is off to the side. I agreed pretty much right down the line with you guys. This is probably my favorite episode since Lethe really. So emotional for me. Not just the Burnham Saru scenes (which even on a couple other watches still gets me because it doesn’t really matter if WE think Saru will die, Saru and Michael believe it so it impacts us. Michael’s break down just gutted me.), but also every time I think of the Space Oddity scene, even just think of it, tears spring to my eyes because it. Is. So. Loving. It is so clear that just as Michael says “I love you Saru” just as she thinks she will lose him, Stamet’s line “Tell my wife I love her” is really saying “I love you” to Tilly and Tilly’s tearful reply within the lyrics of “she knows” just was so laden with acknowledgement it just broke my heart into a thousand pieces. It was such a perfect moment. Those two are just magic together. I can’t remember the last time I got so emotional watching a tv show or movie. I am so on board with “what triggers Vaharai?” It is clear that empathy triggered Saru’s here but it’s not Logan’s run. You have priests and elders. There does not seem to be a specific age for this puberty. The culling seems random. I think there *is* something to that obelisk thing and being triggered randomly or genetically to go into Varahai. Or do the priests make these choices somehow? Which would be a real kick in the gut to Saru but his father was clearly weighed down by something. If so, that question Saru asks was very close to home when he says “Father what if I reach Varahai by the next culling” and his father just kind of rages at him “then you’ll be thankful for the honor“ and casts that in a whole new light. Michael really just took on a new inner light by the end of the episode I have not seen from her before. This seems to have been pretty cathartic for her too in some way. I am so so excited for next week. Though it looks a little terrifying.

No posts yet???! Well, I had a couple of thoughts to share after listening and reading around the net. I keep hearing people say the people on the planet in New Eden were "taken against their will". And I don't find that particularly accurate. Nuclear bombs were about to hit. It's more like they were taken not by choice. Really don't think they were keen on dying. I don't really know how if any large number of them wanted to go home, how it could have been done. There were 11000 of them. I suppose Jacob and his daughter might have gone but .... I don't get the impression he wanted to go without others. He didn't actually even ask Pike if he could. Gosh, for some reason I sure love that whole scene between him and Pike in the basement. (But jeez, that was one bright ass church! lol). Also the question I don't hear asked.....why did the Red Angel want Discovery to be the ship to investigate? It's pretty apparent the damage to the Enterprise was deliberate, just as they were to go investigate. It might not have been so much about stopping the investigation (and since they have been guided to two places needing rescue, we must assume it WANTS them there) but about getting Discovery to these locations. Hmmmmm. Message Input

My notes on your notes. Lol! Awesome notes on the girl who made the stars story. I loved the opening SO MUCH. It’s just beautifuL on all levels. Sarek’s House. Filmed in the Integral House in Toronto built for math textbook tycoon. Check this OUT! https://torontolife.com/real-estate/look-inside-integral-house-rosedales-28-million-modern-mansion/. If you watch Yesteryear in TAS (my favorite episode of it) I think it has a very very similar feel to Sarek and Amanda’s house in that episode. And I think it’s being huge makes sense for them as it did for the original owner of the Integral house. As it says in the article I posted above he needed peace and calm for study but spaces large enough for 100-200 guests for performances or gatherings. Sounds like something a high up diplomat would need. Hair, the natural hair movement is and has been such a HUUUUUGE HUGE deal in the black community in particular for decades for black women the hair change would be loud and clear signal of claiming yourself and coming into your own self. I really kind of hate the uniform ululations out there but I did want to point out Hiawatha patients also wore the blue uniforms like Discovery. Maybe they really do test new uniforms for a whole mission. Maybe they were supposed to be implemented quickly but you know this war thing happened and fashion might have gone on the back burner. (Because that was about two years long. We don’t KNOW how far into the 5 year mission they were do we? I don’t know. I need to go back and watch The Cage. But still there was at least a two year period where it would be the last thing on their mind.) Re: the humor of the Linus sneeze (yeah my least favorite but I do still quite enjoy it). Be sure to check out Burnham’s expression after the Linus sneeze. Omg she LOVED that Connelly got nailed after he was so nasty and condescending to her. She was so....guilty pleasure about it. I found it shows a side of Burnham we’ve never seen. Stamets was just watching old “texts” as it were. Like listening to old voicemails of someone who has passed. I loved this whole scene so much. Even more on second watch. Those two have massive chemistry and I think Stamets grief and desolation is palpable without being overdone. The tears in Tilly’s eyes kill me. And the beauty and balance of the humor and pathos is just masterful here. Re creepy child Spock - he is a little Village if the Damned -ish lol. But I don’t totally not like it. I also think it’s not totally jealousy OF Michael but jealousy of how Michael is allowed to express her love with Amanda in a way he is not. I still love love love the Amanda Spock scene in Journey to Babel and Spock’s just small body movements that say so much. When Amanda says “and I’ll hate you for the rest of my life!” He just crumples a little when you KNOW he actually wants to fling himself into her arms. And after she slaps him and leaves, his posture as he goes to the closed door and touches it, is so powerful. He soooo wants to be the person who can run after her amd cry “I’m sorry!” It’s not Michael I think young Spock is threatened by but how Michael is allowed to be. (I do love the idea too of him seeing her as so brave. I’ll be interested to see if that comes up specifically) Ok. Sarek’s movements again. (I will never understand Valerie’s confusion about Sarek’s being on Discovery. Or not being as it were. Lol) There is no reason to believe Sarek wasn’t taken home after the end of Lethe to recover. Later, he comes back on board with Cornwall. Here he is on the ship because he is getting a ride after the big Paris doings (remember he says her mother is staying in Paris a while and he is coming with them since they are picking up their new captain on Vulcan.) I love the Sarek Burnham scene but I always love them. And I love these small two person scenes that develop relationships. The War Without The War Within is probably my favorite S1 ep because it’s a whole bunch of Intimate scenes like this. I did not really get “flirting” between Tilly and Pike. More like “dad teasing” to me. Got your nose! She’s certainly flustered. He’s a captain like she aspires to be. He’s a Big Deal he’s the captain of an important ship. He’s highly decorated and known. Of course she is flustered. Like meeting a person you’ve always admired like a hero. And they TEASE you. (Plus yeah of course he’s hugely charismatic and charming. Which adds a cluster degree of factor 5) He was delighted and bemused with her fluster. Watch his face during this scene. Honestly I had exactly zero anxiety about his “real ness” after this scene. I also think they did a good job of showing the bridge crews enjoying this too here. I will never not love “Where’s my damn red thing!” (Even if it‘a a bit Kirk like). I love the different orientations we see Discovery in throughout the asteroid scenes. Check it out next time you watch. They do such a better job of “right side up” not being a thing in space. Nhan is a Barzan. Like in the Price in TNG. I thought Spock’s quarters were great. The door and room reflect MCM/danish modern touches that harken back to TOS even if enlarged and modernized. To me they somehow blended the styles of TOS through even the movies. The shape of the door and the grey with red really reminded me of TOS and some of the movies. In TOS the red was everywhere in the corridors; whole doors, seemed like the ceiling was red in some shots. The back panel of coms devices in the corridors were red. And I felt like, sparse and danish modern/mod as Spock’s quarters were it was like someone really lived there. I don’t know how they gave it a sense of “presence” but it seemed like he could walk in at any moment. Am I alone in this? It may have been colorful but to me it was a beautiful period red particular to the mid century era. In TOS Spock just had that small sitting area in red and the bed of course but it’s definitely in keeping with his original digs. For Spock, even then, would have preferred this monochromatic calm. Guess what?! There is a book coming about what the Enterprise was doing during the war! I’m pretty excited about that. Also, yes Valerie, There are tow ships. Lol. I really really liked this episode first watch and I think I fell in love second watch. Totally think Jet Reno may be the best character ever invented and I will be massively disappointed if she is not seen regularly the rest of Discovery’s run. Because she is an intergalactic treasure. I also will be horribly disappointed if they do not announce Star Trek The Pike Years after this season because come ON man, there are years of stories to be mined here!!! And I love Pike. If I love young Spock even half as much once we meet him, I will weep if they don’t do this. There are So. Many. Design and music details in this episode. Good lord you could not have a better “love letter to Trek fans”. I’m sad the people who hate it (and IMO seem to have never REALLY watched A Star Trek episode for anything but ships and battles - boy am I tired of “it’s too SWJ! Whine whine”) won’t get that. And some will call it “fan service” (which I vehemently disagree with, and makes me literally angry. Because this stuff is often so subtle it’s lost on a lot of people out right but “flavors” the entire show like a fine meal). But it really is SO thoughtfully done. What can I say. I loved S1 but S2 is probably going to be amazing.

I was just finishing your Podcast on What's Past is Prologue and though I still need to finish out the pod season (highly enjoying, even with many disagreements. lol) and felt the need to address Lorca heartbreak. I think in a way, Lorca heartbreak was exactly the point. I agree perhaps some aspects could have been written better perhaps, though I was not bothered at all as much as our hosts. Some of that is clearly "we have 13 episodes to tell this" (I count the first two as a prologue), but honestly, some of it is microscopic examination of the impossible expectations we all have of "what is Star Trek and how should it be presented". I feel that Discovery constantly examined second chances throughout. Right down to literally piecing together a solution from a repetitive loop and series of choices in Magic to Make the Sanest Man go Mad. Burnham was finished. She destroyed the thing most dear to her and a false captain brought her a second chance to be who she could be even though that was never his intention. She was constantly resetting and fighting certain aspects of her instincts as well as her training. It drove her to act on feelings and motivations I don't believe she totally understood (do any of us understand all of our motivations though.) Sarek had a second chance to be the father he could be and though we haven't seen it at the point of the series at end of WPIP, he will ultimately even manage to be a father of comfort, and of demonstration in the scene outside the transporter room with Burnham. And she gave him that chance by not writing him off in anger (her determination as she left sick bay in Lethe and specific use of "Father" as an address tells us this), and because she understood he was shamed by that choice he made even as it angered her and hurt her. How much more certain was she because she literally saw into his mind that he was tortured by that choice that led to neither outcome he had envisioned. Shame requires atonement and regret which was why it was brilliant to me to use one word which is shaded by so many emotions. It was the emotionally economical way Sarek could respond. It is up to him to capitalize on the second chance she will be willing to give him. In many ways Mirror Universe Lorca was offered a second chance. He ultimately did not consolidate the gains he made in the prime universe but throughout his time there, it was not like he rampaged as MU Lorca would have in his own universe. He was callous, he was destructive in ways BUT he *did* train a crew to razor sharp good decision making for their time, which no one in Starfleet was good at or prepared for. He *did* cut a swath of rescuing throughout their time in the war fighting FOR the Federation even if he did not use the universal law version. As L’Rell says, THAT is war. He did give good advice. Even in his more questionable moments as when he refused to buck the system as usual and told Saru no rescue would be mounted for the admiral because it could put them in the same position of being trapped. He wasn’t a good person but he wasn’t really wrong about that. Ultimately however, his own selfish goals were realized and he paid for it. He could have made use of his second chance and actually gained respect and a certain amount of power but he threw it away. His failing wasn't IMO cardboard or hollow, it was obsession that he could not overcome or rechannel into being the hero of the prime universe. He was obsessed with the need for a complete domination of the world he knew and he was not ever in love with Mirror Burnham, he was obsessed. He was patient for sure, but he was obsessed. He is the contrast to pretty much every other character arch presented.The cautionary tale. I believe Georgiou will be the success that Lorca was not. Maybe not in the accepted normal "Federation way" but in adjusting her nature and personality to the cards she is handed in a second life. L’Rell got a second chance at achieving an understanding of the larger picture of the Federation. She learned that things were not as she was taught. Her exposure to Cornwall I think sincerely turned a little bit of a light on that maybe T'kuvma really did not know the enemy. She learned to think on at least a deeper level about Klingon roles in uniting the empire. She shifted and used every tactic and every bit of information she had each time a new situation presented itself and changed her tactics and actions to fit the new situation. She did what Lorca did in that way but she didn’t throw it away at the end. She adapted. And she reformed her world view a little bit each time. She is a bridge builder in a way wider way than she originally considered being. And Tyler/Voq, the most complex character (IMO) , literally gets a second chance at everything. And again as he spends time, like Lorca did, fighting for the very thing he (as Voq) thought was what he hated most, he gained more and more of an understanding, even if it was subliminal to Voq through Tyler. It was not just his falling for Burnham that got in the way of shedding his Tyler personality as L’Rell intended I don’t think. It was the friendship of the crew, the bonds they formed, his overlay of Tyler’s personality as well as learning to love Burnham. In all fairness, if he had died when L'Rell went to release Voq (and I think that was a possibility) it would most likely have been the "just" end. Instead, he becomes someone new, neither completely Ash or Voq. It gives Tyler yet another chance to literally live even if it is all in the conscience of Tyler in a manufactured Tyler body. By the end of the season, even when he is rebuffed by Burnham, he resolves to find a way to claim the new person he is. We still do not know where that will lead or how successful it will be but he is not throwing it away. Saru got a second chance at command and he blossomed. He had learned very much from his failures in Choose your Pain. It may have been Trial by Fire, but between that experience and his shame of his behavior on Pahvo, in which I think he very much learned to understand more about Burnham's initial choices in the first two episodes, he seemed to understand maybe you can conquer fear outside of that false environment and that you can't do it alone. You have to let your crew support you and you do that by inclusion. (Am I reading too much into this? That is what I see.) Heck even the tardigrade got a second chance. I am looking forward to finishing your pods to see if any of what I saw came through to you as well. But I do think, Lorca was the lesson of throwing away a second chance. I wonder if that theme will show up in Season two. I could write even more but I guess I feel that Star Trek in general and Discovery in specific addresses the struggle of how to take advantage of a second chance, to fight FOR that chance and to do better, be better, live and act better. One can only hope in our present climate we can find ways to do the same.

Hi! I just found your podcast today and listened to both Brightest Star and Calypso. I think it’s one of the best pods I’ve heard and will be sharing! I wanted to make a comment regarding Discovery, Zora and her orders. I too think there is a feel that the Federation no longer exists as we know it. People have positEd that the V’drasch as the Federation or what it’s turned into. That being said, in my head cannon,Zora and the Doscovery are the last guardian of the Utopian Federation. Her crew left her there (wherever that is) to be returned to and to hold the Starfleet banner safe as it were. In my head I want Craft to get home, be reunited with his wife, rally a group to return to Zora and rebuild the utopian Federation dream. Lol. I’d Watch that show.