Apr 19

Such sweet sorrow it is .

50 comments

Well this season whilst far from perfect has been entertaining and exciting and confusing but despite the faults it has been good, strike that, it has been very good.

Have I been confused at points, yes absolutely.

Have there been plot holes you could drive a bus through, yes.

Have there been strange character variations, absolutely.

Have I ever wanted to stop watching, NEVER.

 

What this season boils down to for me is that despite the flaws and miss-steps and occasional confusion I have overwhelmingly enjoyed the show and will wait with bated breath and anticipation for the next season and who knows I might even give the section 31 spin off a little look too.

 

It is easy to be critical of anything from the outside, we don't know the trials and tribulations of the showrunners and writers. We see how it is, not why it became that . Anyone who has ever created anything knows that your creation is a living and evolving thing and no matter how detailed your plans going in, what you get at the end is rarely what you thought you were going to get. It is difficult enough when the project is all your own but when it is a cooperation between many it is very easy to disrupt accidentally and very difficult to get back on track. Because of this I give the people making this complex show with many moving parts a huge amount of leeway.

 

I love this show, I am invested in the characters even those who are not going with us on the next leg of the journey. Is it perfect, no but it is damn good.

I would say I feel the same. I know people complain but the highlight for me is the Spock/Burnham relationship. I need to rewatch because I'm just damn emotional about this show and I was in a bit of a daze for half of it and also the two people I was watching with are yellers. One a trekkie and one a non-trekkie but both involved and there was a lot of talking at characters and shouting and even some Klingon thrown in (which was pretty fun but it means I, an internal watcher, need to watch it quietly now. lol). But even with all that, the Spock Burnham moments really got to me. Unexpectedly so, because I really didn't think they would (for some reason). I swear, when Spock realized he could not get back to Discovery and he is just looking at Michael before he tells her he LITERALLY looked five years old. That killed me.

 

The action sequences were fantastic. I though the battle was amazing and when the Enterprise dove in front of DIscover to take hits for her, like one of my podcasting friends said, "I swear I could hear the ENterprise yell "NOOOOOOoooooooooo". Afterwards, my non-trekkie friend said to me "GoT should watch this. "Your lil dragons are nice. Hold my beer.' And it didn't take them two years to put this out."

 

Of course the second highlight is JETT RENO IS ON THE DISCOVERY! Woohoo! OMG, she was awesome this episode. I've watched the crystal clip 6 times and I laugh every time. I think next year is going to be FUN.

 

Third for me is the Enterprise send up at the end. On top of (again) getting emotional listening to the mirror dialogue of Spock speaking to Michael not knowing where she was just like she did to him in the first episode... heart clutch. But also, well, if they aren't putting some pretty serious thought into a Pike spinoff, I'll be a monkey's uncle. For anything they say, they have to be trying to get this to work. The more Socmed talk there is the better so get out there and sign the petition and tweet, because as Mount says, they ARE watching that.

 

The last few episodes have upped my interest in the S31 show that had waned.

 

So overall, I honestly feel like they are on the way to a really fun third season and possibly more Pike/Spock/Number One (who I NOW feel I really like. I just didn't have enough of her before now, but that whole end interrogation sequence just screamed "I need to see more of this woman". She was kind of a mix of Riker and Lwaxanna. lol.

Apr 19

A jumbled, vexing mess to the end, IMO.

 

Happy for those who liked it.

Post podcast: Well....I.... don’t really know how much I can really can respond to that. Lol. I did want to mention re: Tyler I agree that was a fast promotion but.... didn’t AI Leland kill a lot of section 31, almost all really. So ...maybe he really was next in line.

 

I guess I can’t speak to battle choreography. Battles in space are never that interesting or clear to me but I did think this looked more chaotic which.... seems like what it’d really be like. I did think a lot of the teeny ships were unmanned pods hat they controlled from the bridge. Not the shuttles of course. I can’t really see our main people being in battle because they are the sciences folk. I personally loved when the Enterprise moved in to protect Discovery bodily. Whether that made space sense or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Cornwall and the stake of self sacrifice was important because it sets Pike up to not use what he believes and Klingons believe as unshakably true and be Mr. Risk taker just because he believes it. She brings home the point to him really, do you want to risk lives on that, so he doesn’t use that as he goes forward as a shield or magic talisman.

 

I totally agree yum yum line was stupid in any capacity. Though I will say, they have Saru make a very clear point early in the episode Leland LOOKS human but is not. Though I guess it is still a point to debate, because AI assumed a human form could it still suffer?

 

I know here are at least two lines in last week’s ep that made me think more than just her close friends were staying. I’ll have to find them. It did not make that scene any less impactful to me. I sometimes feel like I’m not discerning enough. But what is is. Again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

For me ALL the Burnham Spock moments hit home and I didn’t have an issue with the advice. I took it exactly as Glenn said “find the people most different from you and reach out. Don’t just co-exist or push them away.” Yes Pike is his mentor but he’s pretty even keel. He’s integral to Spock’s development but more as an officer than a friend. Even though he means the world to him in respect. He’s much more a father figure. Maybe this advice did include him. Maybe he’ll become more of a friend now than just a mentor. I think it would always be a slightly different type of relationship than Kirk and Bones. IF THEY’D GIVE US A PIKE SHOW WE COULD FIND OUT. (I’m probably doomed to disappointment here but I continue to wish. *sigh*)

 

I found the book ending of the season, the reverse of Burnham talking to Spock in episode 1, so effective. And sad. He says he chooses to believe she made it but he didn’t really know. I think also, assuming the uniform was a sign of moving forward. Like he wasn’t ok until he made that choice. That was why Number One and Pike were surprised.

 

I guess I don’t really care that it was a personal log. And frankly, if anyone could encrypt a log to be unreadable by anyone else it’s Spock. Burnham was the only one who could unlock it before because she grew up with him. Plus he kind of wanted that found. It’s a device guys. Lol.

 

AND I’M SO HAPPY JETT IS ON BOARD!!! I thought she was fantastic this episode.

 

Episode is 9 pointy ears out of 10 and mostly because what I loved I loved so much.

 

Overall I loved this season beyond words. I suppose mostly because the Burnham Spock story just was everything to me. Do you know I have a brother who is so far from me on everything but we can(and do) text about Discovery. I cannot talk to him about anything else. But we can talk about this. It’s the only thing that tethers us.

 

Oh and also Pike. But that really goes without saying. Maybe we’ll get lucky and get *some* kind of Pike Years series. I’d sell my soul for that I think.

 

Season 3

I really am looking forward to unfettered Discover stories (though secretly I just want 10 seasons of the Spock and Burnham show, canon be damned. Those people will never be satisfied anyway).

 

If I was pitching it, part of it would be that Discovery’s computer, Discovery itself is now a character the crew has to nurture. They can’t get rid of it. Like a baby Data. The data with the computer and Airiam’s memories form a real baby intelligence. I think it will be sad if they don’t continue with that and instead say it’s dormant for now and let it grow into Zora all alone when they have to abandon it eventually. (It was never said that the “almost a thousand years” in Calypso was from the Discovery\TOS era. It might actually be a thousand years from the 930 year jump plus whatever time Discovery the show lasts. )

Karen, I just want to pick up a point about torturing Leland since we decided not to give it a detailed philosophical consideration on the air. It's true that Saru says that Leland is not a person, but it's clear that Georgiou thinks Leland is (thinks that Control is). For one, you can't torture a machine. And indeed, this is one ethical test we can perform to determine if we regard something as alive or not -- do we think that it can feel pain. On top of that, Georgiou wants "revenge" on Leland, which indicates that she thinks of Leland as not just a lifeform but as an individual with a will -- the capacity for choice.

Apr 21

@G.L. McDorman It's all wrapped up with how problematic Georgiou is now. We're supposed to forget she's a space Hitler, but here they show us again her wontonly cruel side. If Leland was just "Control," why lord over him in his last moments sneering about having the last word and addressing him by his human name? If he really was still Leland in there somewhere, the glee she took in killing him makes her reprehensible to the viewer in the extreme. I mean, what are we supposed to believe he's done to her to justify laughing at his dehumanizing fate and painful death? As far as we know, he was a sneaky and less than principled guy who was her boss. We're to believe this justifies spitting on the guy's grave and we're supposed to enjoy it?

@Greg While I also do not care for Mirror Georgiou's m.o. in this scene (or for how she's been written most of this season) perhaps the writers may have been going for the idea that she had a hate-on for Leland for what he did to Michael and her family. In other words, "you hurt someone I care about, so now I delight in hurting you."

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Apr 20Edited: Apr 20

First off... Glenn, your tribute to Gene Wolfe was really touching. I've never read his work, but you inspired me to go read about his life, and now I want to seek out his writing. On a sadly related note, we lost another legendary sci fi writer this month, Vonda McIntyre. She wrote two great Trek novels, plus the movie adaptation novels for Star Treks 2-4, plus a whole lot of other stuff. Our culture would not be where it is today were it not for the sprawling imaginations, solid talents and driven hearts of writers like Wolfe and McIntyre.

 

As for this s2 finale... well, it wasn't my cup of tea. I've just listened to the Lower Decks episode discussing it, and Glenn and Valerie certainly voiced some of my problems with this episode/season. But now I'm shifting gears - because I am NOT in a negative mood this weekend! (Happy 4/20, Happy Passover, Happy Easter, Happy Earth Day, and/or Happy Happiness to all of you and yours!). Above all my own criticisms, I simply want Star Trek to continue blossoming, even if the smells of some of its flowers don't appeal to me lol. So how about I take a page from Ms. Oprah Winfrey and list things I have loved about "Star Trek Discovery," to remind myself how great I have it? Thus, here is my list:

 

Season 1

All four Short Treks

"Brother"

"New Eden"

"Point of Light"

"If Memory Serves"

Anson Mount's Pike

Rebecca Romijn's Number One

Doug Jones' Saru

Tig Notaro's Jett Reno (*eyerolling* that name tho)

CBSAllAccess' USS Enterprise, inside and out, muah!

"Discovery's" entire Production Department, everything from props to cinematography to acting to costumes to FX, etc.

Valerie, Glenn, the Lower Decks podcast, and these forum message boards

 

There, I think I've covered it.

I feel great now! :D

Live long and prosper.

Thanks for checking out Wolfe's work! I had missed the news of Vonda McIntyre's passing. She and Wolfe both have stories in Orbit 11 -- indeed the Wolfe story is one that I mentioned on the air. I happen to have found a copy of that in a used bookshop here in Philly last summer, so I'm going to add her story ("Spectra") to our list of upcoming bonus episodes. Also, I'm secretly (okay, not that secretly) working on a solo book-club podcast and I'd been planning to do a stand-alone Trek novel, so she's going on that list, too.

@G.L. McDorman so....what would you recommend starting with for Wolfe? I actually was unaware of him (not a surprise as my reading choices have always been more along the lighter side like Heinlei). You have piqued my curiosity.

@Karen Chuplis My recommendation is his short story "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories." You can find this in a few Wolfe collections (it's also heavily anthologized in "best of SF" collections), but there is also a reading of it on the podcast Podcastle.

 

Alternatively, if you've got time now that Discovery is off the air, you could check out his novel The Fifth Head of Cerberus. This is always my recommendation, but it also happens to be the book we are finishing right now. Solving the mysteries and puzzles is something that gets readers contentious and that forum is already heating up with some fun arguments before Brandon and I have even laid our own cards on the table.

 

In any case, I would love to hear your thoughts about whatever you read (and Heinlein for that matter!).

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Apr 22

Having had time to listen to the podcast and re-watch the last episode I have pulled together some thoughts.

The dizzying start with orders being shouted out by the dozen, this doesn't bother me at all. As a former serviceman I find it quite realistic, it happens all the time in the forces and you get used to just plucking the parts relevant to you out of the stream.

 

l completely agree that Saru's speech was poor and off point and I am sure that the writers simply dropped the ball here. I am sure that someone just needed something sort of military and vague and just plucked a random part of Sun Tzu and stuck it in.

 

@Valerie we military and former military also love people and are nice just like Starfleet until you attack us. LOL

 

The huge number of ships has the effect of ramping up the tension and showing the chaos of battle but have a great tendency to pull the viewer away from what should be the focus of the scene which are the characters in which we are invested. Just the occasional wide shots and then perhaps some closer shots of Discovery and Enterprise taking large amounts of damage would have worked better .There were shots of the two vessels taking major hits with hull breaches and casualties but they were submerged in the chaos. It is unusual for ST to give us mass battles just the Borg and Dominion and they were mainly just little glimpses or reports so I guess we might say that this foray into big battles was not the success they hoped.

 

Po whilst pivotal to getting us to this moment is nothing more than a distraction in this episode her few scenes seem to have simply thrown in to simply give her something to do, had they contracted her for two episodes and needed to fulfill their obligations.

 

Hitting the group with the Time Crystal was excellent it gave us the tension of injuries setting up the Stamets / Culber scene. It gave a vehicle for Reno to show leadership and it gave Tilly the internal conflict between friendship and duty. I must say that in combat gory is realistic so @Valerie comment of not gory and realistic made me laugh out loud.

 

I can imagine that after the command crew volunteered for the mission they would need at least some crew. I can imagine the captain asking for volunteers to stay behind perhaps using the worn and completely untrue trope that it will not be held against you if you choose to leave and like any military organization they stepped forward. This is why they appear to have a full crew.

 

There was a comment that our main cast should be piloting the small vessels but those vessels were left behind, if our crew were on them they wouldn't be in the next series.

 

I loved the Burnham / Spock scenes they were very well written and acted. I think that what Burnham was trying to get at was that Spock has a tendency to retreat into pure logic and he should find someone who is intuitive and emotional to be close to. This would help him to retain a balance between his human and Vulcan halves.

 

Culber's sudden appearance on Disco could have used some setup just something to show him making the decision to try to be with Stamets.

 

Cornwell's death gave a sad and meaningful beat but it also removed another high ranking Section 31 officer clearing away some officers for the spinoff.

 

The idea that everything that happened could be kept secret is pure sophistry, many of the participants were not Starfleet and not even Federation and they would have no reason to keep it secret this is simply a poor nod towards preserving the canon.

 

The torture and comments around that were terrible writing and character destruction with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever .

 

 

Tyler appearing to klingons complete **** up don't the writing team keep up? What was the showrunner doing? Sleeping perhaps.

 

Spock's journey which started with him thinking himself unhinged and removing himself from duty is now complete he has sorted through his internal demons and with the help of Burnham and his parents has now come to a place of peace and this is symbolized by his feeling it is time to return to full duty and put on the uniform he now feels worthy of.

 

I would love a Pike spin-off.

I feel that the section 31 show will concentrate on just a small team rather than any high ranking positions. @G.L. McDorman Tyler was a Lieutenant when found so Lt Cdr is only one rank up and Cdr two.

 

Season 3 is now in a time after any other ST iteration and so now has a free hand. The end of the season will likely bring us back to season 2 timeline as Giorgiou needs to be back for the Section 31 show.

I'm pretty sure they will leave Michael at any rate in the future or people's heads will explode. *sigh*. They really should never have backed down on that. OTOH, it does IMO give us an exciting opportunity here for again, something different for next season, where the crew will be very reliant on each other.

Apr 22

@Karen Chuplis It does open up some interesting possibilities. Does the federation exist what will Disco's relationship with them be what of the time wars, is Burnham's mother there and how will she factor in and will Burnham stay on with her if the rest of the crew return. They will probably be at a tremendous technical disadvantage versus the inhabitants of that time.

Plenty of opportunities for fun stories.

Apr 22

@kev may I think back to Janeway setting the tone for her united crew early on. She said that it didn't matter where they were, they still carried Federation values. She pledged they'd try to represent the best of Starfleet service and do their duty even if they never saw home again. Not an exact recollection, I'm sure, but the gist always stuck with me. I thought it was genuine leadership in a tough situation. Not everybody onboard was going to agree with that plan, but she intended on leading by example and showing them it was the right thing to do.

 

I just don't know if I have the same expectation from Discovery. Will the writers continue to create trap doors for our heroes, so that their actions always seem either pre-destined or without consequence? (The former because we're always lurching toward the next hastily cobbled together plan without taking a moment to ask why and the latter because seemingly dire plot and character changes are abandoned as quickly as they're set up)

 

Worse still, I guess in my grumpy brain, I question whether we're wasting our time wondering what the "new" Discovery show will be about. They could easily return Discovery to the Pike era in a couple of episodes and forget the finale's secrecy debriefing if they feel like it. They could whip up a completely different reset that abandons any or all of the relationships we currently know. If they can base L'Rell's very survival on hiding Ash Tyler in a not so secret space espionage fleet and then let him openly return to Qo'nos later in the season with no explanation whatsoever, they can do anything.

 

My point is, whether by intent or habitual laziness, they're really not committed to anything. Heck, they even left vague the question of Saru's captaincy, so they could keep their options open on that. Ugh.

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So....just saw this. Kind of excited! I'm not a comic book person but I will be getting this.

 

I'm left with more questions than conclusions at the end of S2.

 

Why was Leland so ineffectual in hand to hand combat? I would think that his blows should have been damaging given what he was able to do to the spore cage. Why wasn't his nanobots composition used during the battle? Controlling to many resources simultaneously?

 

What happened to Commander Nahn? I know she wasn't super popular character, but I liked her until the lines she got in this episode.

 

Number One never gets a name? That is the dumbest thing that has ever been done in Star Trek. The TOS episode Spock's Brain is Shakespeare compared to that.

 

The whole ending that Discovery can never be mentioned seems very against Star Trek ideals to me somehow. A weak ending to the episode and the season.

Nhan is on Discovery. She got knocked out in the hall.

In regards to Leland going into the future with Discovery. Wouldn't the time paradox mean if the data goes into the future before Control gets it, then Control never existed so Leland would cease to exist. I think, should have been explained though.

Anson Mount posted this today and it is just so adorable.

 

Apr 25

I'd watch that program any day, they look really comfortable together. Great chemistry doesn't happen very often and should be embraced with open arms when it does .

@kev may Gorn it’s just hard to believe they can’t make something happen. I know maybe a whole weekly series might not be doable due to schedules and how long it takes plus budget but man some series or something should be doable. It’s lightning in a bottle I tell you.

Oh my gosh. Was listening to the pod Redshirts and Runabouts and they actually nailed what would have basically shut everyone up about this ending on either side. Leland is neutralized, but Burnham has already entered the wormhole. And DIscovery has to make a decision. Let her go alone or keep their promise. I could envision Spock on the comm, in his last emotional meltdown begging them to follow her and not let her be alone. Gosh I wish the writers had thought of that.

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