Hi guys! I've been listening to the pod for a bit, but I'm new over here!
I am a lifelong TOS and forward fan, and a Disco defender, so I figured these are my people. :)
A thought on the VERY opening of the show as discussed on Lower Decks, and then I'm going to buzz off.
Sarek opening the episode attempting to reach Michael through his katra was significant to me because we've now seen him use this in two situations this season: in each, trying to reach one of his kids when things were desperate, and contact seemed impossible. To me it demonstrated the Vulcan paternal love for Michael that we earlier saw him express for Spock. I thought it was a nice touch, and helped lay both logistical and emotional groundwork for the later scene between Burnham and her adopted parents.
I love this reading (and welcome to the forum!). I think this works even better if we watch the two parts as a single episode, because it reinforces the family dynamics that matter so much to the conclusion of the season.
@Indy1784 Welcome to the forum! I really appreciate this point, and just made a similar comment in another thread. I think because the plots have been divided (across the season and by jumping back and forth in each individual episode), sometimes the power of each individual plot line and the significance or smaller moments gets lost.
What do you think? I love that you were able to keep better track of these things as a viewer than I was!
How many shuttles do these two ships have‽ In earlier series, the shuttles always seemed like rare and precious things (Voyager jokes aside) with a ship only having maybe two or three of them. But in this final scene there are many dozens (hundreds?) of things flying around. Probably most of them are the little grab-bot things. And I'm pretty sure I saw/heard a few of the spinny gravity-shuttles from the first episode too, which is a nice callback.
@Karen Chuplis I agree! Being a woman or a man is just an identity and I don't see that as political either. Discussions of the varying perspectives, roles and interactions between the two are inevitably political, though. In my understanding anyway. :-)
@Greg Yeah. See that is an issue. You say being a man or a woman is an identity but *talking* about it is political. And I say, no. That is my life. Interacting is my life. How I'm portrayed is my life. But if that becomes uncomfortable then it is political. So, no. And I'll stop now. As you say, I guess this is not the forum. It never is. That is the point about comfort levels and Burnham.
@Karen Chuplis I'm getting an "F" in communication today! My use of the word "political," as far as I meant it in my last use, just refers to how we interact with society and the rules we construct for ourselves. In and of itself it doesn't have a negative connotation at all, but I can see how it seemed I meant to convey that - like I was implying some views weren't welcome. I had earlier on used the word in the context of not wanting the climate in here to get heated, so I should have been more clear! (Note to self: Don't use the same word twice within the space of a few posts, once in relation to something negative and next in relation to nothing negative at all and expect people to know what's going on in my head.) So, if I'm hearing you right, it seems I gave the impression I was being a troll and trying to imply that gender discussion was out of bounds. Please allow me to clarify that I think every person, from every walk of life, should be free to take their daily sensory input, interpret it however they like and defend their views loudly and proudly.
Holy moly the ship exterior shots in this episode were gorgeous! I loved Discovery somersaulting over Enterprise at the beginning—the first of several inverted establishing shots throughout! All the closeups of Enterprise were lovely and reminded me of the "starship porn" of The Motion Picture, which people make fun of but I have always absolutely loved.
The escape hallways were fun even though I can't think of any situation in which they would ever be useful… "We have plenty of time and power (force fields) and maneuverability (to position six inches from another ship) but need to evacuate the ship anyway!"
Agreed with others on Michael's centrality to everything just being annoying at this point. Aside from the viewer-fatigue of constant universe-ending upping-the-ante every week, poor Michael never just gets to have a happy moment! Or, rather, she gets a single moment in each episode and that is it. Has there been any episode of this show where something traumatic hasn't happened to her?
@chrissam42 It worked! I've heard a few surprised comments on the size difference, but along with the turbo lift shots, I kind of wonder if DSC is designed to be big and pretty hollow for some mycelial reason.
Someone more digitally savvy than I must now post a link to that terrifying space walkway scene from "2010: The Year We Make Contact," not only to convince Glenn how crazy he is to want to picnic anywhere near that Trek walkway, but also to show everyone something which may have inspired the DSC evac scene?
@Valerie H. Well, I really think it would help if they stopped trying to walk some kind of line out there in fandom. I believe that is why they leave some things open ended and they shouldn't. It's like they are being too careful. And it leads to missed opportunities and development. I do get that sense of "being careful" a lot. Sometimes, even if it's crap, "going for it" is way more successful.
@Karen Chuplis So true. As many issues as I've had, the canon worries I keep hearing about just don't bother me. Seriously, we have some folks who are going to get mad if the deflector dish looks different or a character is introduced that wasn't referenced in 1968. There's no use being careful for those people. Discovery should have focused on being more internally coherent and let those grognards be who they are. If the product is undeniably good, they'd have come around eventually anyway.
@Greg sadly I’m not sure we can get them past it. It’s oretty obvious people in that group won’t be happy no matter what. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But I do feel it is the biggest obstacle to true success.
I busted my butt bingeing this whole season + podcasts + Ready Rooms all so that I could catch up with new eps and finally join my beloved Lower Decks/Claytemple message board community in excitedly discussing this season as it winds down... and my first episode back, I'm treated to this contrived nonsense?! You have got to be kidding me, Disco writing staff.
Just so many plotholes, forced "moments," repeated beats, overused genre gimmicks... and so much obnoxious dialogue. The only things I liked about "Such Sweet Sorrow" were Pike and the Enterprise bridge. The rest, I'd flush out the airlock. Starting with Burnham - who does indeed desperately crave to be the center of attention/ know-it-all/ human sacrifice in every single episode. Whereas I loved her in season 1, she has become downright insufferable in season 2. You can tell that even the writers know this, by that Mirror Georgiou* comment about Burnham's "martyrdom complex." But I'm sorry - hanging a lantern on it doesn't make it any less annoying.
As for this time travel mishegoss...
I've said it before, that the streaming model of serialized season arcs is not my favorite format for Star Trek. It can be done well, sure. But if you are going to spend 12-14 episodes building up just one story, you have got to dig deeper to tell one hell of a unique story, to pay off all these hours in which you've asked your audience to invest. Time travel is the cheapest, most overused gimmick in modern sci fi pop culture. Unless the season finale somehow uses this tropiest of tropes in such a way so as to justify devoting an entire season to setting it up? - then I am going to be one demoralized Discovery fan. I'm already miffed af over the cheesy name "time crystals" (insert huge eyeroll). Sounds like a mediocre 1980s videogame!
I also, still, don't get why CONTROL needs this Sphere data so damn much. Seems like CONTROL is already as artificial, intelligent, and... well, controlling... as an A.I. can possibly be. What the hell else does it want to do, that it isn't doing already?! It can takeover human bodies, it can swarm like mecha-bees, it can CONTROL an entire branch of an intergalactic military. Just ask it what its endgame is. Maybe it's something easily providable. Maybe all CONTROL wants is Sphere porn
(* I refuse to refer to this character merely as "Georgiou," for the same reason I'd never call Voq "Ash Tyler." And it bugs me that otherwise sensitive characters on this series who know the truth seem to have no problem letting twisted doppelfuckers and weird Klingon science run around trashing the names/reputations of noble officers who died in service to the Federation! Where's the respect, sheesh..)
@BionicDave , I heartily slow-clap at your last point. Something has really been missed with Voq Ash Tyler and the matter of his identity. The Klingons seem to care more about this than anyone on Discovery.
@G.L. McDorman@BionicDave I think someone at the core of your comments is that there was so much missed opportunity for character development and depth. They created incredibly interesting and complex characters, only to forget that they'd done so altogether or to boil them down to essential, one-dimensional traits that don't do the characters justice. So much could have been done with Culber coming back from the dead (where did the plotline on his internal strife go?), with Tilly training for command, with Ash/Voq integrating his identity (Trek could keep dipping its toes in the water of intersectionality, or, dare I say, even dive in!), etc. etc. If the Ariam episode taught me anything, it was how wonderful it was to get a deep-dive into a character's complexity!
Hi guys! I've been listening to the pod for a bit, but I'm new over here!
I am a lifelong TOS and forward fan, and a Disco defender, so I figured these are my people. :)
A thought on the VERY opening of the show as discussed on Lower Decks, and then I'm going to buzz off.
Sarek opening the episode attempting to reach Michael through his katra was significant to me because we've now seen him use this in two situations this season: in each, trying to reach one of his kids when things were desperate, and contact seemed impossible. To me it demonstrated the Vulcan paternal love for Michael that we earlier saw him express for Spock. I thought it was a nice touch, and helped lay both logistical and emotional groundwork for the later scene between Burnham and her adopted parents.
HAPPY STAR TREK DAY Y'ALL
How many shuttles do these two ships have‽ In earlier series, the shuttles always seemed like rare and precious things (Voyager jokes aside) with a ship only having maybe two or three of them. But in this final scene there are many dozens (hundreds?) of things flying around. Probably most of them are the little grab-bot things. And I'm pretty sure I saw/heard a few of the spinny gravity-shuttles from the first episode too, which is a nice callback.
I just watched this episode again. I really, really, REALLY want to believe that they built that Enterprise bridge with something else in mind.
Holy moly the ship exterior shots in this episode were gorgeous! I loved Discovery somersaulting over Enterprise at the beginning—the first of several inverted establishing shots throughout! All the closeups of Enterprise were lovely and reminded me of the "starship porn" of The Motion Picture, which people make fun of but I have always absolutely loved.
The escape hallways were fun even though I can't think of any situation in which they would ever be useful… "We have plenty of time and power (force fields) and maneuverability (to position six inches from another ship) but need to evacuate the ship anyway!"
Agreed with others on Michael's centrality to everything just being annoying at this point. Aside from the viewer-fatigue of constant universe-ending upping-the-ante every week, poor Michael never just gets to have a happy moment! Or, rather, she gets a single moment in each episode and that is it. Has there been any episode of this show where something traumatic hasn't happened to her?
I guess I’m the odd man out. Always. :(
Wow, I thought this episode was dreadful.
I busted my butt bingeing this whole season + podcasts + Ready Rooms all so that I could catch up with new eps and finally join my beloved Lower Decks/Claytemple message board community in excitedly discussing this season as it winds down... and my first episode back, I'm treated to this contrived nonsense?! You have got to be kidding me, Disco writing staff.
Just so many plotholes, forced "moments," repeated beats, overused genre gimmicks... and so much obnoxious dialogue. The only things I liked about "Such Sweet Sorrow" were Pike and the Enterprise bridge. The rest, I'd flush out the airlock. Starting with Burnham - who does indeed desperately crave to be the center of attention/ know-it-all/ human sacrifice in every single episode. Whereas I loved her in season 1, she has become downright insufferable in season 2. You can tell that even the writers know this, by that Mirror Georgiou* comment about Burnham's "martyrdom complex." But I'm sorry - hanging a lantern on it doesn't make it any less annoying.
As for this time travel mishegoss...
I've said it before, that the streaming model of serialized season arcs is not my favorite format for Star Trek. It can be done well, sure. But if you are going to spend 12-14 episodes building up just one story, you have got to dig deeper to tell one hell of a unique story, to pay off all these hours in which you've asked your audience to invest. Time travel is the cheapest, most overused gimmick in modern sci fi pop culture. Unless the season finale somehow uses this tropiest of tropes in such a way so as to justify devoting an entire season to setting it up? - then I am going to be one demoralized Discovery fan. I'm already miffed af over the cheesy name "time crystals" (insert huge eyeroll). Sounds like a mediocre 1980s videogame!
I also, still, don't get why CONTROL needs this Sphere data so damn much. Seems like CONTROL is already as artificial, intelligent, and... well, controlling... as an A.I. can possibly be. What the hell else does it want to do, that it isn't doing already?! It can takeover human bodies, it can swarm like mecha-bees, it can CONTROL an entire branch of an intergalactic military. Just ask it what its endgame is. Maybe it's something easily providable. Maybe all CONTROL wants is Sphere porn
(* I refuse to refer to this character merely as "Georgiou," for the same reason I'd never call Voq "Ash Tyler." And it bugs me that otherwise sensitive characters on this series who know the truth seem to have no problem letting twisted doppelfuckers and weird Klingon science run around trashing the names/reputations of noble officers who died in service to the Federation! Where's the respect, sheesh..)