WOW!
OK, loved it, just loved it.
Ok, Lorca doing the right thing and saying the right thing. Being a Starfleet Captain as we have come to know them.
Burnham showing guts and self sacrifice, compassion and brains, and retrieving her captains badge which is more of a touchstone for her than the telescope ever was.
Ash and his troubled past with the Klingons resurfaces and perhaps he has some sort of implanted conditioning which allows L'Rell to influence him, well that could be a problem. Perhaps his feelings for Burnham might somehow temper that influence.
Obviously L'Rell is is deep into some sort of convoluted plot, but to what purpose and what is Voq up to and where is he.
Stamets appears to have brain fried himself after turning out to be a fine officer ( I have actually begun to like him a bit), did he know that last jump would fry him, did he purposely set them astray? Is he going to survive? Is this the end of the spore drive and why we revert to warp drive and dilithium crystals?
This cloaking technology is obviously flawed so it probably isn't the same as later types and perhaps that preserves the cannonical time line, it is A cloaking technology but not THE cloaking technology.
Where are they? Has this been a Voyager like shift? Thrown deep into Klingon territory and fighting to get home? Or is it someone we have not met before's territory perhaps someone who has had their run ins with the Klingons?
So many questions.
I really liked the pace of the episode, the intro scene was back again and this was a snappy and high paced roller-coaster of a ride. The violence was fairly moderate and plot essential which I am sure Valerie will appreciate. With Kol dead I guess there is going to be a power struggle created by that vacuum at the head of the Klingon empire and all sorts of intrigue and maneuvering is therefore possible for Voq to return.
The Disco being lost in unknown space gives ample room for a more episodic format and for the war to be a less pressing problem given that the crew will have no information or intelligence about the conflict whilst out of contact. Their actions with respect to the war would be severely curtailed as they would not know what would help or hinder the Federation's position.
If this has been a very long intro into a more familiar format and feel going forward then I feel that would be a mistake, I want them to keep the more edgy and modern feel they have introduced whilst maybe being less adversarial going forward.
@kev may Bamboozled indeed! I also completely loved this episode and was totally enthralled. We just finished recording, and I can't wait to hear what your thoughts on some of the questions we pose and on aspects of the episode that left us guessing. As you've pointed out, there is a lot to talk about! January 7th can't come soon enough.
Wow, Kev, you've really laid it out! SO MANY QUESTIONS.
Valerie has a surprise (for me, at least) theory about what wrong on the last jump, but I really love yours. If Stamets did this on purpose, that really clears up a lot of confusion I had about his conversation with Lorca in the shuttle bay.
That's also a great point about Voq. From the beginning I thought this was going to be a story about his rise to power from the lowest echelons of Klingon society, but the show seemed to be veering away from that. Yet, as you point, out there is space once again for that to happen, and I really hope it does. Of course, the rest of the show may take place in a parallel dimension that doesn't even have Klingons, so anything goes, I guess.
Also, I'm totally with you on Stamets. I think as vets there was no way we were going to like the Stamets we met in Episode 3, but I've come to respect him as he's started to take his obligations seriously. What a fantastic arc, and I really hope that we don't lose him.
Thanks for the shout-out, Glenn. I've posted the surprise in a new thread. :)
@kev may - I forgot to mention that you're completely right: the violence in this episode didn't bother me at all, which was lovely. I also like the theory that maybe Stamets self-destructed the spore drive to keep it from being used on people again, but I'd have a really hard time believing that he'd do that without being honest with his partner beforehand. Is this what you had in mind in your original post?
I'm too impatient to give Kev first dibs here!
I extrapolated that if Stamets is the one who got them lost, he did it because he doesn't actually want to get his brain fixed and stop traveling the mycelial plane -- that he's addicted to the jumps, the spores, and/or living in his mystical clearing in the forest.
I am having thoughts about the final jump and that perhaps several possibilities may be true at the same time. Maybe Lorca did want to take them somewhere unknown but maybe the destination reached isn't that place because Stamets decided he wants to explore and keep his connection to the mycelium rather than being stuck in a hospital being poked and prodded and away from his partner. He is wishing to keep his fix and his partner and is prepared to loose them to keep both. If this is the case he would not inform his partner of his intentions. Perhaps the Lorca-Stamets conversation was another where they were only thinking they were speaking about the same thing. Lorca a wish to go to some specific location and Stament wanting to run away from the Federation which would seperate him from the drive and his partner. I do like that he has somehow seemed to become a better, less self centred officer, irrespective if his addiction is pushing this.
Perhaps this new location is Stamets' forest, a place away from the war in which such heaviness and turmoil can be left behind and they can explore without those pressures hanging over them.
The Klingon empire is up for grabs at the moment, the Klingons have been portrayed in such a way that their primary loyalty is to themselves. This paves the way for a great faction fight within the Houses and opportunity for Voq to return to prominence with the assistance of the matriarchs (and whatever plan L'Rell has up her sleeve).
I very much agree that the subjects of PTSD and Rape have been handled very well and with little use of graphic horror. The implied trauma is enough, we want to indicate it happened without actually traumatizing the audience. Ash is very scrambled mentally, we wonder if this is as a result of the trauma or if it is perhaps imposed as some sort of implanted or conditioned memory and that L'Rell is able to pull his strings (Manchurian candidate in space). She has Implanted memories which make him believe that he was there with her in attendance for his full period of imprisonment where in fact she was only there intermittently whilst shuttling between Voq, Kol and the prison ship.
Your question about the admiral and his command to withdraw gave me some thoughts. If Disco is indeed instrumental to the war it is entirely possible that the sacrifice of one non aligned planet to save the Federation could make entirely logical sense, not moral but logical. A military imperative trumping the moral. As an aside i believe the blue sparkly lights faction is a loser (sorry Valerie) I believe the reference is to sentient beings in the federation.
I loved the St. Crispin allusion I have always loved that speech, as a veteran I think such things always seem to affect me more than perhaps they should " For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition;" always gets me almost as much as "Once more unto the breach, dear friends" This was Lorca being a Starfleet captain, something which has seemed to be a bit of a problem for him in the past.
Ah, Kev, your quotations have reminded me that I should have mentioned the Klingons' own use of Henry V in The Undiscovered Country! But I think Valerie was subconsciously hinting at the possibility of a special episode about Shakespeare in Trek, so perhaps I'll have the opportunity to really explore that. And yes, what a phenomenal play -- it gets at the heart of war and military experience in a seemingly timeless way. It's a classic for a reason.
You make some awesome points, and I can't wait to see what L'Rell gets up to on the Discovery, especially if it really is lost in some other dimension or in the Delta Quadrant or something. I suspect that you are right about Tyler -- that he is some sort of Manchurian candidate and we're going to see him struggle against his programming. I'm looking forward to a story like that.
As for Stamets, as much as I found Valerie's evidence compelling and really interesting, I think your reading of the situation also has a lot of evidence, and it offers a reading of Stamets's behavior for the whole season that ties it all together very nicely. I'm inclined to believe this. But I wonder if it's even bigger than that: what if Lorca and Stamets are having the same conversation, that Lorca knows what Stamets intends, but neither of them really expected the catastrophe in the spore drive?
Ah yes the allusion that Shakespeare was Klingon By Christopher Plummer wasn't it? I kept on expecting him to burst into a reprise of Edelweiss.
So you trump my collusion with collusion plus accident.
So we have a ship flung into a different area, a crew member considered to be a criminal and we have a prisoner of war. Voyager, Maquis rebels and tame borg have we had this story before?
Haha, right! But I will say that these writers really fooled me and Valerie with their use of Voyager parallels before, so now I'm on guard.
I wonder if the intercom mention of Will Decker was more than just a little easter egg for Trek veterans. Perhaps it's a clue (maybe even a promise) that the ship will get back in time for Will Decker to be in The Motion Picture.
Oooh, I'd love a "Shakespeare in Trek" podcast! - said English major BionicDave Lol Bring it on!
Another superlative post-show chat, Glenn & Valerie. I am so grateful that I found your podcast. I think listening to it is almost as much fun for me as watching each ep of Disco.
Like you guys, I give this finale a thumbs up. The writers have earned my trust, and Disco’s proven to be much better than I ever expected it to be :) So even though my natural inclination does NOT want a "Star Trek/ Sliders"-type story arc in January? At least I'll be open to watching it, I guess, before I cancel my CBS subscription and rewatch DS9 instead. haha
Some stray thoughts on the finale:
1) Yes, the Stamets/Culber kiss was indeed the first gay kiss in "Star Trek" history! This is a huge, decades-in-the-making moment for the franchise. Long overdue progress, but progress nonetheless. As a gay guy myself, I've been pleased that this couple's orientation has not been mentioned at all within show dialogue; by that point in our future, one's orientation shouldn't be seen as strange or remarkable in the least, love is love. Actually, I hope the show goes further, to create characters who do not fit into our current 21st century definition of orientation, gender, etc. TNG did that cool episode where Riker falls for a gender-neutral character - which was beyond groundbreaking for early 1990s broadcast TV (hell, even for 2017 TV). Even “The Orville” has already tackled both orientation and gender thus far, and brilliantly so. But still - great job, Disco. I'm sure there are 70 year-old gay Trek fans who watched TOS live during the 1960s and have been waiting all this time to see someone like them in this future we all love.
2) Speaking of Stamets/Culber... brownie points to Glenn for explaining the easter egg of the "La Boheme" / "Rent" / Anthony Rapp connection. But that’s just half of it! Wilson Cruz also starred in "Rent" early in his career!
3) Boy, Valerie is right, this series has indeed cleaned up Lorca's character (well at least until this finale, maybe). Our captain’s gone from obsessed-untrustworthy-Ahab-figure-with-mad-scientist-man-cave, to… hostage-hero, to… PTSD-suffering-wounded-warrior-who-sleeps-with-phasers, to… leader-who-inspires-his-crew / gets-credit-for-destroying-Klingons, thwarting-their-cloaking-device, and saving-an-admiral! Sometimes these seemingly unexpected character arcs are planned from the start. I wonder if this is that, or if this came about more organically. Perhaps as a result of Bryan Fuller leaving, and/or the drive of the series shifting? I’m sure we’ll find out eventually. Personally, I like dark and creepy and mysterious Lorca. I don’t need yet another Archer/Picard/Kirk good daddy captain. Burnham’s all the heart and nobility I need on this ship. And maybe Airiam. We sure as hell won't get it from "the-pollen-didn't-make-me-do-it-I-wanted-to-kill-my-crewmates" Saru! #LockHimUp! LOL
4) As for Ash Tyler: I won’t go into detail, because I fully believe what the internet spoilers have said about his situation, and I don’t want to spoil anyone who may be lucky enough to have remained unspoiled thus far! Lol But I will say that I so appreciate the podcast's deep dive into Tyler's flashbacks. While I was watching the episode I actually did think to myself “I bet Lower Decks will analyze this for me frame-by-frame” - and sure enough, you two did! (Also thanks for that SPORE OVERDRIVE catch on Lorca’s iPad.) (AND for your awesome St. Crispin's Day speech readings!) Anyway, the Tyler flashbacks confirm what I believe, though I am still curious what Valerie & Glenn truly believe. And Tyler remains my permanent Smooch AND Marry, hahaha! I reserve my permanent Kill for…
5) …the Talaxians, because I fear the finale’s last scene may have dumped Disco in the Delta Quadrant, where a planet of fucking Neelixes WILL DEFINITELY get me to cancel my CBS subscription and go back to my DS9 rewatch!
@kev may:
I love that you’re reminding Glenn and myself of what we’re always saying: there can be more than one truth! I’m really intrigued by all of the theories being offered up (also by Glenn and BionicDave) and how creative they all are. I’ll admit I am particularly taken by Glenn’s idea that Stamets is an addict as a way to explain why he might lie to his partner, even though he truly loves him (oh, and BionicDave, great catch about Wilson Cruz and Rent!). My main take away from all of this: DISCO has managed to stir up an excited-little-kid feeling in me that makes me want to keep guessing and thinking and going ooh! ahh!, which makes me all kinds of happy. I didn’t foresee feeling this way when we started out, and it feels amazing to be this excited about new Trek.
Other things also making me happy right now:
-@kev may being brave enough to disagree with me! Maybe I’m addicted to the blue sparkles and just can’t see past them?
-Seeing where we’re going with the Klingons now that, as @kev may mentioned, things feel really up for grabs
-That our listeners reacted to our Shakespeare readings with more Shakespeare! Glenn and I are two very lucky hosts
@Bionic Dave:
As for Ash…Glenn and I will have to show our hand eventually! I can’t wait to finally be able to discuss it all on air. I must say I’ve been more and more taken with him as time passes. (And I quite literally burst out laughing in response to your Talaxian comment. What a horrific image: a planet of Neelixes!)
You’re so so right about it being about d*mn time we got some totally normalized love is love plot in the Trek universe. I’d like to think that Trek was always open to it, in spirit, but that networks and viewers just hadn’t caught up yet. Having a full diversity of identity represented was always at the core: infinite diversity, in infinite combinations. I agree that we still have headway to make with regards to gender and in terms of moving away from binary-dominant narratives and characters. I do want to ask you, though, do you not count the Trill kiss between Dax and Lenara in DS9’s “Rejoined” as the first gay kiss in Trek history? I remember actively cheering when I saw it happen, a moment held in stark contrast to my extreme frustration with TNG’s failure to do the same with Dr. Crusher in “The Host.” I will say, however, that I did appreciate that TNG was even willing to consider the possibility at the time, and also loved the Riker episode you referenced for the very same reason.
@Valerie I am a former serviceman so either brave or stupid, take your pick. Stamets addicted to spores and you to sparkles.
Shakespeare is golden, you can't have too much.
I like Ash but i fear that there are turbulent times ahead for him and not just from Burnham. Both Ash and Stamets have huge potential for complex and surprising storylines.
I was trying to work out how much time had passed from the Battle of the Binary Stars to this point but it has to be upwards of six months, this is perhaps the reason for the difference in the feel and cohesion on the crew. They have been together in battle for six months, in that time you either gel or kill each other.
Despite most rational people being perfectly at ease with relationships of any kind there are still many out there who are less enlightened and it is a brave move to show this in the light of those always quite vocal groups. So yes I echo you, it is about time but also brave.
The presence of any Talaxian on-board is cause for the self destruct system to be engaged.
You guys, Neelix is my sister's favorite character. Holidays are really tense for my family.
@Kev May, L'Rell and Voq were stuck on the Coffin Ship for six months following the battle, it was another month until the encounter with Mudd on the prison ship, three weeks later we get the events of Lethe. I don't think that we've had any definitive time-stamps from Burnham's log since then, but I think we're about nine months since the Battle at the Binary Stars.
I'm always interested in reactions to "The Outcast," "Rejoined," and the under-appreciated ENT episode "Cogenitor." "The Outcast" deeply affected me as an adolescent -- it blew my mind about the world in the same way that "Darmok" and "The Measure of a Man" did. In one of my classes a few weeks ago I had to do an ad hoc lesson on critical gender theory so that my students could better understand a theological text from a Carolingian bishop. Since I hadn't planned the lesson, I leaned on my own cultural referants as an entry-point for the topic, and, instinctively I invoked "The Outcast." None of them had ever seen it (I mean, they weren't born yet, so there's that), but they also didn't know any of the other sci-fi stories that focused on gender identities, so I think there's a strong need for Star Trek to keep telling these stories. I wonder if Airiam might be a good candidate here.
And thanks for all the kind words! We've got some good ideas for some thematic episodes at some point: Shakespeare in Star Trek, and Gender and Sexuality in Star Trek, at least.
Also, I'm pretty embarrassed to have missed the Wilson Cruz connection with Rent! The film version of Rent is even part of the Claytemple Media origin story: I met my co-host on our other sci-fi podcast when we went to see Rent with some of our mutual friends during our military days.