I really enjoyed this episode. What I particularly liked about it (besides it getting me to pull down that collection from my shelf & read this story in it, which I hadn't yet) was the insight it gave me into the intellectual background you seem to have. You had come across, of course, as knowledgeable about Christian thought, but then one could hardly be a scholar of Augustine and not be, and it hadn't ever seemed as personal—to both of you—as it did here.
As an example of what you meant, when talking about free will you both went instantly to theology. As someone who is more grounded in analytic philosophy, my immediate go-to would not be Calvin, but the libertarian (not in a political sense), compatabilist and determinist schools of thought. I don't mean either is more important than the others; I just mean that for a basic explanation that would be my initial framework. So in that sense, it was great to get a sense of where you both are coming from. (I, too, was powerfully affected by Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men, by the by.)
(Incidentally, you have both been reticent about saying, outright, what faith traditions you belong to. If you are both being private about an area that doesn't need to be spelled out for the podcast, then I certainly would not want to pry. But if you simply haven't thought anyone would be interested, well, at least one listener is. After all, Gene Wolfe's Catholicism is central to so much of his fiction (and Swanwick grew up Catholic and left the church; I heard him discuss this at a panel once, and he definitely seemed to think it relevant to his work). So it would be interesting to know to what degree either or both or neither of you share it (either now, or growing up, or what have you) — if, again, you wished to. All I'm saying is, if you wanted to say, I, at least, would be eager to hear.)
As for the Swanwick story: the one connection I was surprised neither of you made was to the Wizard of Oz. It's hard to have a walking, talking Scarecrow in English-language literature and not think of that, and it seems clear to me that Swanwick was playing with the parallels, at least a bit. The young boy certainly seems like a Dorothy-like figure: without parents, thrown into chaos by a crash, trying to get home, or at least escape the wicked witches. One could see the former Young Master as the Wicked Witch of the West... or as Oz, who originally seems good, but is a fraud and not to be taken seriously. And an old car is not a bad analogue for a tin man, is it? And so forth. I don't know how much to make of this, but it seems worth mentioning.
One last intertextual note: not directly relevant to the story, but my favorite SF example of the sort of "getting-out-of-programming-by-reinterpreting-it" is in Greg Egan's novel QUARANTINE. If you've not read it, it's a lot of fun (not as literary as Wolfe, but enjoyable, and that one moment is worth the whole book).
Oh, and don't think I skipped or disliked episodes 6-9 just because I didn't blather about them. I just didn't have as much to say. "How the Whip Came Back" — one of my very favorite Wolfe stories and one I've long puzzled over — was one of the first episodes I heard, and it was the one that convinced me to go listen to them all in order, and to make sure I reread the story first no matter how well I thought I knew it. The other three were all good, interesting episodes — I think there's more to "Morning Gl0ry" that you might have gotten, and I am astonished and amazed at how much you did manage to get out of "Car Sinister". But no real Thoughts.
Oh, well, fine, one more intertextual note: "Morning Glory", with its notion of society as a metaphor for plant intelligence, and then perhaps vice-versa, appeared in the same year as Theodore Sturgeon's Nebula & Hugo award-winning story "Slow Sculpture" (one of my favorites) that also has tending a plant as a metaphor for tending society. I know Wolfe is a big fan of Sturgeon, but I doubt the timing is such that this story could have influenced Wolfe's (unless he read it right after it came out, wrote his quickly * got it published nearly immediately— seems unlikely at best). Still, an interesting coincidence, if nothing else.
Thanks for that note about "Morning Glory." That's a story that I felt like we should have gotten more out of, but I just could never put my finger on what we were missing. Still, it was one that I really enjoyed.
I can't believe we neglected to talk about The Wizard of Oz. Your analogs certainly make sense, and Baum's novel (if not the film) is very much wrapped up in contemporary politics and questions about the government's authority within the economy, so even on a thematic level there is an interesting parallel.
As for our theological bent, I'll defend Brandon here by saying that on this episode at least, I'm the one who wanted to dig into the theology. There a number of reasons I wanted to do that: foremost is simply that it's where this question resides for me (and was a real thorn for me growing up); but also because of Wolfe's Catholicism* and his readers' interest in theology; and finally because the Scarecrow's programming comes from a direct and knowable creator it seemed like the religious parallel was significant. But I'm certain that we'll revisit this topic again before we're done! And Brandon and I have just finished an episode in which we go through all the arguments in Plato's Crito dialogue.
Thank you also for your interest in our own religious backgrounds. I talked a little about discovering Wolfe during a phase in my life when I was reading a lot of Jesuits-in-Space stories, and that was also a period when I was spending a lot of time walking around Denver talking to clerics of various religions, and even once spoke on the phone with the anti-Pope in Australia. I'm certain that before we're done, there will be more stories about my childhood church antics and my own theological interests and questions. In my free moments before bed, I've been reading some of Chesterton's essays about converting to Catholicism, so you can definitely expect to hear that creeping into a lot of our episodes.
*I hadn't known about Swanwick's faith. That will be something to keep in mind if we cover any more of his stories (and I hope we do). He lives in Philadelphia, as do Brandon and I, and we're keen to interview him about Wolfe, but also about what it was like getting started as a writer in Philly in the 70s and 80s -- something he writes a little bit about in the introduction to Not So Much, Said the Cat.
Stephen, thanks again for your great insight and further reading suggestions. I want to address your question about Christianity, at least on my behalf. My interest in philosophy stemmed from an interest in theology. For a long while I considered becoming a theologian of some kind. I grew up in an evangelical environment and am now, when I can manage it, somewhere between a Presbyterian and an Episcopalian. I became a little turned off by theology while studying philosophy as (as was also the case with studying literary criticism) I found many theologians to be bad interpreters of philosophy and maybe two hundred years behind issues that I was concerned with. That changed a bit when I started reading some of the Union Seminary folks like the Nieburh bros., who seemed to be concerned with vital contemporary issues and how Christianity could speak to them. From them I made it to Stanley Hauerwas, who I still truly love as a theologian. The only other major theologian that has stuck with me is Josef Pieper, a German Thomist.
In this Swanwick story, I'll agree with Glenn that the parallels to how religious structures function w/r/t robots and creators was too much to ignore. Ultimately, though, I think Glenn and I enjoy talking theology. I especially like it if I get to talk about justice, wholeness (flourishing), or mercy. I think you'll hear more of those topics come up in our stories.
Brandon, I hope you understood that I was *not* complaining about the theology; I find it fascinating. (I know Glenn has seen me tweet out my currently-being-serialized graphic novel, which is largely composed of people thinking and talking about religion in probably over-intellectualized ways.) NOr was I saying that it was an ill fit to the Swanwick story; I find the former fascinating & was grateful to you both for engaging in it, and thought the latter made sense. I look forward to more theological discussions (particularly once in Book of the New Sun, when you get to some of Severian's theological musings...). Anyway, thanks for filling in more details of your background. It's all very interesting to hear about.
No worries, Stephen. I didn't take it that way. Now I have to check out your graphic novel!
Well, it's here: http://happenstance.thecomicseries.com/ Currently posting chapter 4 (of 12). New pages post twice a week, Monday & Thursday. Enjoy!
Wonderful! I'm excited to dig in.
Yes, I've been reading along and it's awesome.