Wow. Great episode, guys, and I say that in particular because I didn't like these chapters nearly as well as you did. I find myself much more interested in the next two chapters having heard your talk about the first two, than I was simply having read them,
(I should say that, yes, contrary to my expectations, I *am* reading along, thanks to the generosity of Marc Aramini who offered me a spare copy of the novel. Thanks, Marc!)
I am also struck, however, by the fact that, having read only the first two chapters, I am hesitant to weigh in on your discussion of them: after all, you live, as you say, in the future (and I *just* figured out the "we greet you and say farewell thing" after all this time); you've now, as I type this, done the whole novel. If I predict which way it will go, it will come up against the hard fact that you know. I've read the text you've discussed, but not the WHOLE text, for the first time. — And while for pretty much any other Gene Wolfe novel, I would probably go ahead & read the whole thing if I hadn't yet, and then reread it along with you two, I am not sure I'm interested enough here.
But I think you'll keep me reading.
So, some observations that I don't expect to be simply vitiated by the following chapters...
1. I was surprised you didn't make it clearer how thoroughly Wolfe has repudiated this text. He's never let it be reprinted. And it's not just because the cuts — Wolfe hasn't ever, to my knowledge, tried to get the uncut text reprinted either. It's more than that. A friend of mine, who knows Wolfe somewhat (he was program chair of an SF con at which GW was GOH) once told me of mentioning Operation ARES in Wolfe's presence; Wolfe turned to him with what he thought was genuine hurt and said, "I thought you were my friend!" — This repudiation of this novel is, perhaps, over-affecting my reading: I am not assuming that there is more going on than I am catching, as I usually do in Wolfe, at least at first pass. But it still seems worth mentioning.
2. The writing seems to me not as good. Clearly. The bit on page 2 when Japhet says "set us straight" and JC thinks about how he's a hunchback is just cringeworthy. Later Wolfe would show the "liking, pity and repulsion" in some fashion, and not just clunkily spell it out. And so on.
3. I, too, saw echoes of Wolfe's later work — the end of Chapter One, and the desperate nighttime mission from one unused to such things, reminded me of the middle of NIGHTSIDE THE LONG SUN. But I personally found it less cool and predictive than a pale imitation. De gustibus non est disputandum, of course.
4. I liked your drawing attention to the Noah references; I missed those.
5. I thought that "White City" might have been a reference to the venue of the 1893 Chicago's World Fair, known as the White City (probably more famous back when Wolfe was a schoolboy than now, and anyway he lives in Chicago (although I don't know if he did then)); interesting, if I'm right to see what it means. (The 1893 White City was a sterile & planned place, but also a celebration of progress and technology...)
6. A list of characters with the initials JC can be found here (first folder below main text): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SignificantMonogram
More in the next post, less this get too long...
I have not read this book yet, it seems hard to come by on purpose. Just from your discussion and covering chapters 1 and 2 the world building seems very future version of the French Revolution. The suspension of the previous government, due to rioting population, the “temporary“ government that becomes self perpetuating and voting based on taxes are all features of the French government in the 1790s.
I’m just getting to this book in my catching up with the podcast. This explains why the only copies for sale are used for $17 on Amazon.
I’m very excited to be along for the ride! At this point I have no idea when that became the tradition, but I’m fairly certain that pausal forms have led to a variety of other misconceptions. It’s probable that in the Septuagint the translators just had to choose one version of the name, as pausal variations are clearly a confusing aspect of Biblical Hebrew, and it happened to be the one that rhymed (sort of) with ‘yafe,’ the word for beautiful. I wish I had more to contribute on this front. Anyway I’m enjoying all the episodes so far and will definitely be keeping up as best I can. I’ll be here for help with Hebrew when we get more! Keep it up, gents!
Robby, we're so glad you're reading Operation ARES with us -- we know that's a path few will dare to tread.
This is really fascinating. I didn't check the Spetuagint, but both the Vetus Latina and Jerome's Vulgate have that "e" as an "a" (Iafet), so that appears to have been the tradition in Western Christianity from its inception. Do you know where in the process that happened? Also, just for fun, I checked one of the late antique biblical epics I've worked with to see what poetical adjectives were associated with "Iafet" in the early sixth century. Although this author (the bishop Avitus of Vienne) has more than a thousand lines on the flood story, the only one of Noah's sons who is mentioned is Ham. He's mentioned only in the context of slavery (of course) and not even named, only labeled as Noah's middle son.
And I'm sure we'll have more Hebrew to interpret. When we get to the Soldier Series, Brandon will have to keep a taser on hand to prevent me from just rambling about ancient languages. And we're recording "Alien Stones" this weekend, which has something to say about beating swords into plowshares.
Hey all. I’m only writing this in response to the first two chapters’ summary episode, as I’m also going to read along and am slightly behind, though almost there. Anyway, I have little familiarity with Christian readings of the Old Testament, but I’m a Jewish seminary student so I just wanted to add my 2 cents on something that was said. If Japhet is interpreted as ‘beautiful’ traditionally in Christian readings, then I’d assume Wolfe was playing on that, given Japhet’s physical form. However, the biblical name is actually Yefet (Jephet if you want), not Yafet. The Bible uses a pausal form of his name in the first two mentions in Genesis, which makes it more resemble the word for beautiful, though I believe it has more relation to the word for open. I could be wrong, but I think it’s a bit far-fetched that there’s any connection between the name and beautiful. Not sure if there will be more Hebrew to interpret, but I’m here if so!
Greetings from the present, Stephen! Thank you for these thoughtful comments. First, please don't hesitate in speculating -- we'll try not to spoil anything for you.
As always, I really appreciate your insight into the ideological and political zeitgeist of the 60s and 70s. I've really enjoyed treating Operation ARES as if I'm a historian interested in reconstructing those ideologies and this novel is my only source. Indeed, I've found that reading Wolfe has gotten me much more interested in the history of American political ideologies than I ever thought I would. As I mentioned on the episode, I read through some of Buckley's articles about the space program, and then really had to fight the urge to keep reading his editorials because they were so fascinating. But it's been a challenge to treat the text as a historical artifact from our own world and also as a window into some strange imaginary land that we have to accept on its own terms.
Yes, we probably should have been clearer about that. At some point you'll hear me say something along the lines of "I hope GW doesn't find out we've done this." Having gotten all the way through the novel, I fully understand his repudiation of it. The prose isn't great, as you point out, and it continues to be something of a political tract. But I'm glad that we read it -- and that we read it in order(ish) rather than reading it as a sort of appendix after we've completed the project. I, for one, am fascinated by seeing the development of Wolfe's ideas here, and even the development of images and settings and characters we'll meet again later. But I'm also the nerd who has read all of the early drafts of The Lord of the Rings, too.
I'm so glad you're reading along. That was so very generous of Marc, who is so very generous of spirit. We're going to be delighted to get our conversation with him out into the world.
Continuing.
It is on the politics of the novel that I am most hesitant to tread: I don't know where Wolfe is going, and you, in the future, do. Still, angels rushing in:
7. There was a consistent strong, pro-gun message that I found notable, in part because I so vehemently disagree with it. This is not unique to early Wolfe; my least favorite few pages in EXILE FROM THE LONG SUN are a few pages where Silk stops his adventures to pass along a little NRA agitprop. (We'll talk about it when we all get there, I'm sure.) But it made me notice this. One interesting thing about this: gun control was not as clearly a conservative issue back then. One major set of proponents for citizens arming themselves was the Black Panther Party (and, earlier, Malcolm X); as Governor of California Reagan signed gun control, largely in response to provocations by the Panthers. The NRA hard political turn was accomplished, IMS, in the later 70s.
8. In thinking about where all the anti-science stuff comes from, remember that at the time there was a strain in leftist thinking that was seen as (and was to some degree actually) anti-science — science was seen as part of the military-industrial complex, responsible for nukes, etc. Furthermore, the nascent environmental movement was seen as anti-science — since science was equated with technology, and the environmentalists were seen as anti-technology. Today, with the battle lines drawn between climate scientists & deniers, it's hard to remember this, but it's true. — It's also interesting to tie into the novel, however, since A) Wolfe has always struck an environmental note, and B) the tradition of Republican, if not perhaps Conservative, environmentalism (dating back to Teddy Roosevelt) was still alive back then in a way it's just not now. Be that as it may, the idea that a parody leftist government would be anti-science was probably a lot more intuitive in 1967 than it would seem today.
9. Similarly, you spent a little time speculating about the urban riots; there were major riots in American cities in 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967 and 1968. At the time, major urban riots would have needed no explanation. (They petered out after that, although obviously there have been some (e.g. LA, 1992), but not every summer as it seemed like it was about to be for a while.)
10. You mention one comment of Wolfe's early on as seeming critical of excessive defense spending; but I read the first two chapters, at least, as very critical of the lack of defense spending. As we've touched on before, for all Wolfe's Christian faith, he's never been averse to the social uses of violence. And remember that, in the 1960s — not as much as the 1950s, but still somewhat — "peace" was seen, by Buckleyite conservatives, as a communist term and as inherently suspicious. (To tie this in to earlier episodes: it was peace that was second-most mentioned by the Korean war defectors to China as their reasoning (after McCarthy); they were at first labeled peace ambassadors; etc. See also Heinlein, passim.) It's not accidental, I suspect, that the pseudo-police of the dystopic American government are called the "peaceguard" in this book.
11. I was reading Wolfe as setting up a straightforwardly pro-space program story: this is probably colored by remarks from his in interviews, later fiction, etc. to say nothing of an obvious allegiance to SF as a set of ideas & tropes. I would guess that this, to say nothing of his engineering background, would trump Buckleyite beliefs. But I guess I'll see, and you'll know.
Anyway, thanks again for the episodes. I did like some of the things in the first two chapters — JC's trick at the end of chapter one really was quite impressive (and very Wolfean as a piece of plotting) — but you made me want to go on. So, see you next time.