Hey guys, great episode as always. I have talked with you guys a few times on Reddit, as I said there this is actually the first episode that I have read the story before the podcast episode of it came out so I get to participate in the discussion as it is going. I look forward to your discussion episode, but I wanted to get out some thoughts ahead of time, I have also, of course, read what Marc Aramini wrote about this wonderful little story so I will address that too.
- Are we on the moon? This point stood out to me, and while I think it might be possible I do think there is a pretty strong case to dismiss it in the text itself, namely Emmit. As you guys pointed out he actually lived through these changes and is still concerned about nationalities, and the Pendletons were a family of farmers with presumably some history too since there are branch families essentially. On the moon, I imagine someone being German would be a bit less of a concern, and the farming that Emmit is describing just does not fit with the story necessarily being set on the moon for me. I do still think it is important, and it won't be the last time for Wolfe to do something with the moon being transformed either. Rather I think it might have something to do with the classic werewolf mythos, as the moon changes (due to this becoming possible because of the genetic engineering) people are transformed into wolves which is essentially what happened in this story to the "humans".
- Evolution vs Devolution(?) I think that in this story Wolfe is very concerned about the progress we are making and what is being lost because of that. Emmit is kinda tragically holding onto lost ideals while he and the rest of the werewolves have essentially regressed into pack animals who are more in touch with their animalistic side (emotions) and the masters with their reason and intellect. I think that Wolfe is warning us about losing people like Emmit while we are sailing ahead (this is something I also see in his writing about LotR which I highly recommend checking out actually) and the little things, as we progress things are being lost too. What makes the werewolves heroes? They live in defiance of this new society and while they are bad men they love their children so to say. I do think (and believe Wolfe does too) that the situation is more complex than that, after all the heroes are werewolves that kill people, and the masters seem to have a fascinating society too that I wish we got some more insight into.
- Gene Wolfe was actually a werewolf, we know where his sympathies lie at least. He found a subtle way to brag about it in his writing leaving us only clues, but it is definitely there. And he kept getting away with it too!
Anyways, I look forward to the discussion episode you guys are going to have, this is a very dense tale and there will be a lot to talk about I just felt like adding my 5 cents too. The worldbuilding is amazing and I would have loved to see The Hero As Werewolf the novel or something as well. I cannot wait until next week to hear your thoughts, especially the part about the Jungle Book!
Just for clarity since I haven't followed along with the show weekly before. When do the episodes usually go up? This one said it was planned for the 31st but it was already up during the 30th according to my time.
Welcome to the forum! Housekeeping first: the episodes go out to podcasting services every other Tuesday. That's something we're able to automate, but I can't automate posting it to our website, so I usually do that over the weekend so I don't forget -- so if you're listening via the website, you can usually get the episode a few days early (but don't tell anyone!).
I love the idea that Gene Wolfe was in fact a real-life werewolf(e). I don't see any evidence to disprove it, so it must be true!
We talk about whether we're on the moon in this discussion episode, but neither of us championed that position. I thought about it just to make for more exciting radio, but I just can't see any way to support it.
I like your idea, too, of seeing the two types of people in this story as a separation of the emotional and the rational, a kind of id and superego, maybe. I do wonder, then, if Wolfe is suggesting that we need both parts to be whole, to be really human, as in the classic Star Trek episode "The Enemy Within" (written by Richard Matheson, who I brought up in another context in this episode).
Ah, well I usually listen either on the website on my pc or through Spotify on mobile, good to know I can get some early episodes this way ;)
I just thought the bit about the moon was a nice detail, there is always something to think about in these short stories even if you can dismiss some of the claims. There was this reviewer who said about Perdido Street Station, by China Mieville that he thought some throwaway lines contained more food for thought than a lot of mediocre books. I feel the same way about Wolfe sometimes (incidentally this particular reviewer was not a huge fan of Book of the New Sun from what I recall).
I think what you are saying makes sense. You guys say something in the podcast about the other humans being called "Masters" so we feel more antagonistic against them by instinct, but actually they consider themselves humans too. It is Paul who thinks they are bad, not necessarily Wolfe so much (by this I mean the individual Masters such as the woman that Paul, Emmit, and Janie kill at the start, she didn't do anything wrong). The "Humans" who the Masters thought were inferior clearly managed to survive in a very hostile environment so if the masters had just decided to save Emmit's Pendletons both of these groups together could accomplish their goals much more easily.
Anyways, I am looking forward to next episode!
I just had time to listen to the discussion episode by the way. It was great, you guys brought up a lot of interesting things that I did not even think about. I think it is absolutely true that the wonder of this story is in the world building.
You guys made some excellent remarks (such as the wolves/humans being kept around for population control), but I think you can go even further than that. Later on there are the ghost houses, and you guys say they might have "cured" Paul if he had not escaped, I started thinking and that does not line up with the population control reading. But it seems possible for me that those ghost houses might actually be for the masters. Maybe Paul would have been let go if he had not jumped through the window, maybe the masters didn't even expect to catch a human at all? We don't get all the details but they seemed pretty lax in security, and later on when Paul/Janie get caught again the narration of the scientist kinda makes sense from the perspective of the masters (as in: "let me tell you something you should already know"). So if the masters are still practicing eugenics then it could be that they were doing this with the use of the humans, and now since there are few of them left they have employed new methods too.
That was something that I thought about during this episode, I do not 100% stand by that reading or anything, you could definitely poke some holes in it but it is at least nice food for thought. This story is very interesting because Wolfe throws so many little ideas in there and it is hard to make sense of all of them together and you will come up with 2 conflicting things that both make sense on their own.
@ComicMan That's a really interesting idea. My understanding of the ghost houses is that they aren't actually for catching or trapping anyone -- they're just some technology that Paul doesn't understand that traps him. Perhaps a controlled-entry door or something like that.
If you think Wolfe is a wearwolf, check out his story "Innocent."