Really enjoyed your coverage of this one; I read the Dying Earth tales some years ago and am coincidentally reading the Demon Princes now. I remember being much more enthusiastic about the Cugel the clever stories than the Turjan ones, partly because the hilariously mannered dialogue is more polished in the Cugel tales and partly because they more satisfyingly (?) address some of the plot and ethical critiques you brought up: the Cugel stories are unashamedly picaresque, with one adventure screen-wiping into another with nary a look back, and the relentless up-and-down beats make that work pretty well. Then, the universe of Cugel is entirely amoral: "The rain it raineth on the just,/ And also on the unjust fella;/ But chiefly on the just, because/ The unjust hath the just's umbrella." Because nearly everyone is terrible and we know it, it's fun to root for Cugel to get his comeuppance and then to root for him to somehow land on his feet before going back to rooting against him.
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Lovecraftian Fiction
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The votes aren't all in yet, but it very much looks like the next story is going to be selected from this month's ballot, and I'm looking forward to it. Vance is certainly a brilliant wordsmith even if this story left me feeling a bit icky.
A great episode again, thanks.
When reading the story, I immediately had to think of the magic system in D&D too. And I also thought the sexual assault threat implications and other such implications unsettling. But I think it's indeed the film noir atmosphere here creeping into fantasy, although the protagonist(s) themselves obviously aren't bothered by their own actions.
I only read one other Vance - and many years ago - being his novel Tschai. When reading that, I had the feeling that Vance was experimenting with all possible anthropology and sociology in a speculative world, one of the core activities of SF and some fantasy writers, I imagine. But in that case it was a thick book with all the space to elaborate on things. It's impossible to do such a thing in a small story as Turjan of Miir. As you said, it didn't work as a story in terms of plot but it was evocative enough. I think I have to read the rest of the book to say more about what Vance is doing here (or/if only to harvest inspiration from it for my won writing 😉).
Daniel, I think that's right. I invoked Alfred Bester (the writer not the Babylon 5 character) on the episode, and his protagonists are also awful people -- just as one example. My understanding, too, is that Vance began working on these stories during the war, while he was in the Pacific.
And my sense is that the fandom for and the fond memories of the Dying Earth is really the Cudgel stories. But even though this one didn't sit well with me, the writing was so evocative that it is certainly going to stick with me. And I'm looking forward to covering the next ones (and releasing the two Vance stories I've done on Atoz, which debuts this week).
I think the idea that the ‘hero’ of this story is quite flawed and not particularly likable is in keeping with the times it was written. There is a lot of movies from the 50’s with quite a hard and dark cynical edge to them. Coming out of ww2 many people realized that they good guys’ also behaved just as badly the opposition they fought. The idea that everything in the 50’s were all Leave it to Beaver is a lie of the counter culture revolution of the late 60’s to make themselves feel superior.
As to his motivation in wanting to make vat women it seems to be the same as for any technological advancement, because he can. Many people were beginning to feel apprehensive about unchecked technology in the new atomic bomb World.
It has been along time since I read this. I’m due for a reread.